Sanding and Painting Under the Cover of Dark

[tomschell]

Hey All,

Just looking for a bit of advice here. I’m at yard that “prohibits” bottom work because it’s based in national park but arrived very early this morning (5:30am) and realized that no one is here until about 9am.

I later talked to one of employees here and he told me that if you get here early before anyone arrives you can probably get away with doing it your self. Which is super tempting because otherwise I have to pay the yard to do it and based on the shit job they did with the shrink wrap, I’d rather not.

Given my relatively newness here, I’m having trouble getting a read on how badly I need it done and if I should sand off all the old paint and start again or just the spots where the paint is peeling. Keeping in mind I would be doing this mostly in the dark at just above freezing. I did a video walk around of the bottom to provide a better sense of the current state. Sorry it’s not very exciting.

I’ve got until April 1st until it needs to go back in the water. All advice welcome!

This may be ask for forgiveness not permission type situation…

[Diva]

Thomas
Your bottom needs a rough sanding and maybe a little more in some places. There is evidence of barnacles last year. And you need new zincs, all of which you already know. It doesn’t look like your bottom was painted on a 12 month cycle. Sanding is really dirty work. And it takes a lot of time. Most yards have strIct rules to prevent run off pollution. I would not do it myself or create a mess in my lungs or on the ground. Its pretty hard to screw it up so I would get a price from your yard. Ask around and see what other owners think. Also have your prop, shaft and support sanded and coated with Barnacle buster. Also find out which paint is best for your waters. Get ablative. You may want two coats in some spots. Is the black color old paint?

In MD bottom painting, sanding metal and barnacle buster with paint included ( a certain type specified by the yard) runs about $22 per foot for one coat of paint, included and labor. Sanding is extra at $70 an hour. You can specify your own paint but the difference will be extra.

Often shrink wrap is done by outside contractors so maybe the yard isn’t to blame.
Mike

[tomschell]

Thanks Mike!

Very sensible advice. I do indeed need new zincs and yes the darker color is another layer of paint.

Was looking at belt sanders today with a shop vac attachment. Trying to figure out if that will be enough to control the dust. Maybe with a Tyvek suit and respirator?

$70 a hour could get pretty pricey. Any thoughts on how many hours it might take to do the whole thing?

Also I did confirm it was the same joker who did the shrink wrap that does the sanding and painting. I would be more inclined to have the yard do it if it wasn’t such a general shit show here.

It’s not that I don’t trust these people but when I see shit like this is their office it gives me pause.

[IanMoore2468]

Hi Tom,

So this will probably be seen as sacrilegious by some, but here goes. If you start down the sanding road you are going to discover that it things get worse the more you do so you either keep going or end up with a sub standard job. And it’s the sort of job you want to pay someone to do. If it was me I’d put a drop sheet down and go over the worst places with a paint scraper and get any flaky old paint and barnacles off, easy to catch the flakes on a sheet - maybe hit the barnacles with a shot of buster to soften then up first. Then give it a coat of water-based ablative paint and go sailing - shouldn’t take you long. The strut and shaft give them a wet sand and spray with barnacle barrier. Yes it will be a second rate job but it will only cost you a couple $100. Plan to get a decent job done next year at a yard you have had time to check out and trust and put your money into that. Your boat will sail just fine with a rough paint job, you might lose some small patches and get some fouling when the temperature rises - get out your snorkel and go for a swim when that happens if it bothers you.

[StormAlong]

Do they prohibit all bottom work or just sanding? Kind of hard to hide a bottom paint job.

I would just scrape and sand the bad spots - it looks like you have quite a few. Maybe scotchbrite the rest of the bottom.

But first, are you going to be using a paint that is compatible with the old paint?

One thing about breaking the rules - you may come back and find your boat floating in the water unexpectedly. Be sure everything is done before you bottom paint and do the entire job in one day. If they are not there on Sundays that may be a good day to work.

Do you intend to use that yard in the future?

[tomschell]

Thanks @StormAlong and @IanMoore2468.

@IanMoore2468 - I think you’re right and maybe my biggest concern is starting, getting stopped and ending up with a partially sanded bottom. I think I’m fine with a short term fix that gets me sailing sooner. Will try the scraper approach.

@StormAlong - Agree hiding a bottom job my be un realistic. Sound like you and Ian are suggesting a similar approach. And you’re right I don’t really want to be doing a bunch of sketchy bottom work in the cover of darkness and run the risk of pissing people off. Not worth the risk. How do I know

Any of one have thoughts on what type of paint to use for the NE? Also should I just paint the spots I scraped or do a whole coat and hope for the best. Someone told me that ablative wasn’t worth doing unless you did a few coats.

Maybe I’m over thinking this. Just trying to get to the best “good enough” for now.

Really appreciate all the feedback You guys are great!

[StormAlong]

The paint you choose has a lot to do with the paint that is on there. Example: You cannot put a hard bottom paint on top of an ablative. Best to ask around your area and consult with the paint manufacturers.

I cannot speak to your specific area. I have been using Petit Trinidad SR almost exclusively for the last 30 years. That does not make it the right paint for you.

I would always do a full coat, paying special attention to what appears to me in your walk around as bare spots. The bare spots may require sanding and priming.

[IanMoore2468]

Ah, the never ending discussion of the best bottom paint! I use Aquaguard - was in RI and now in Maine. It goes on over just about anything and is economical. One coat all over plus a second near the waterline or any thin patches where the different coloured first-ever coat starts to show. I get through the season with maybe two scrubs along the waterline as the water warms up, a bit of growth right at the end of the season gets blasted off at haul out. Might be different down near NY where the water is warmer.

[tomschell]

@IanMoore2468 - I’ll start a special thread just for you called “The Never Ending Bottom Paint Discussion”

Thanks for the help.

[tomschell]

I’m back! So I went back to the boat to test sand a spot to see what happened. Here’s the result from one of the spots where the paint what chipping that I sanded with orbital sander with 60 grit paper. Too much too little? How’s it look?

The second question challenge that I’m a little less confident about what to do about the spots on the keel where the paint has peeled right down to the lead(?)

This spot I sanded a little around the edges

Any thoughts or suggestions on the best approach here?

Also just for fun here’s some real “surface of the moon” looking bottoms from some of the other relics in the yard.

Forever grateful,

• Tom Schell

[nwnordic44]

You’re unlikely to sink your boat with a sketchy bottom job. It might add some expense if find yourself 4 years later thinking you should really haul out and finally get around to fixing that stuff that you never had time to redo. Bare metal needs proper primer. If you sand through gel coat you should barrier coat or you might end up with problems you don’t want. Be really careful with that 60 grit paper. 80 grit is plenty. You only need enough tooth for the new paint to adhere. Painters say painting is mostly prep work and using the right materials. It’s too bad you can’t bring in some help. It’s nasty work.
Read the manufacturers instructions and prep guides. They tell you exactly what you need to do. Compatible paint is not a suggestion, it’s a requirement. Incompatible paint won’t stay on very long. But then I’m pretty sure you know that!

[nwnordic44]

…and it looks like you’ve sanded into some fairing material in one of those photos. If that was blistered up then it wasn’t waterproof and if you don’t seal/prime it, it will just repeat. You have to decide if you want to fix with new filler and fair or just prime it, and paint over the crater. Bottom paint is not water proofing. At least not the kind I’m familiar with.

[tomschell]

Thanks @nwnordic44! There are two spots on where the paint was flaking and you can see the lead keel. One of them (IMG_1160) I did a little sanding around the edge to remove some of the flaking paint. IMG_1159 I haven’t touched. But realize I need to address.

Thoughts on how best to approach these? Suggestions on metal primer for those spots? I have some zinc Chromate will that work on lead? Also suggestions on filler after I’ve primed those spots.

Other than those two spots where you can see the exposed keel, I haven’t gotten near the barrier coat in my brief sanding adventures. So far in the small spot I’ve sanded I only took off the first layer of anti fouling (light blue to brownish) which is about as far as I’m comfortable going.

For now, I just want to hit the spots where the paint is chipping and prevent it from getting worse. Fill, prime and paint. I realize I’ll probably need to do a more extensive bottom job in the not so distant future but for now I’m want to avoid opening a can of worms.

No blisters so far! Would love to keep it that way…

Thanks for all the great input

[nwnordic44]

No on the zinc chromate. I think the biggest problem with exposed lead is that it oxidizes within 30-60 minutes of sanding and that is what keeps stuff from sticking to it. Looks like most people coarse sand, wipe clean, and epoxy it. West Systems for example. They have instructions. If you don’t get something like epoxy to stick well to the lead anything you paint on won’t stay on long. If you plan to haul next year and can have the boat wiped in the water maybe a couple small spots won’t matter. But I always regret taking shortcuts.

If you get some West Systems you could use some fairing filler but make sure you get the right one. You want something easy to sand. Otherwise, any chandlery should have fairing compound. There are several good threads on Sailing Anarchy and a few on Cruising about people fixing lead keels. Worth a read.

If while sanding the hull you don’t go past the existing bottom paints you don’t really need to prime if you’re using compatible paint. You only need to prime if you get past the AF paint and into the barrier coat or gel coat or lower.

[tomschell]

Awesome thanks Brad. I have some West System 105, 206 & 406.

I’ll do a bit more research on as well but that seems like a sensible route. Thanks for the help here.

[tomschell]

Hey guys - sorry I’ve been MIA. Been getting ready to go back in the water. Just finished sanding and painting the bottom. And just to say thanks for all the wonderful tips and advice. Here she is!